Steven Bartlett started ‘The Diary of a CEO’ with a $100 microphone. Now he says it’s on track for $60 million in annual revenue

Steven Bartlett started his podcast with just a laptop and a sock pulled over a $100 microphone.

Before there were guests, it was just Bartlett, reading from his diary at 2 a.m. and trying to make sense of what he had written that week.

He eventually began interviewing other people about theirs.

Now, The Diary of a CEO is one of the world’s biggest podcasts, and is on track to overtake Joe Rogan as the most-subscribed podcast on YouTube.

The show has grown into a business Bartlett forecasts will generate about $60 million in revenue this year.

But growing it has also meant turning down money—including a deal that would have required more advertising and taking the show off YouTube.

He described the proposed arrangement as a trade: accept a large payment, put 12 advertisements in the podcast, and have little say over those ads.

“One of the central reasons why I turned down such an offer is because that is four times more ads than I have to put in now,” Bartlett told Fortune ’s Ellie Austin on Fortune Daily .

Working with what he calls “fragmentation vultures”—companies seeking exclusive podcast distribution deals—can mean sacrificing revenue or control over the relationship with an audience, Bartlett argued.

Instead, he sees the relationship with his audience as worth protecting, even when a lucrative offer like that comes along.

The business he aims to preserve already makes money beyond advertising: through products, subscriptions, and events.

Beyond the podcast ad Bartlett, who dropped out of college to pursue entrepreneurship, launched The Diary of a CEO in 2017 by turning his own diary entries into podcast episodes.

He later began interviewing other people about their own diaries, finding it more intellectually stimulating to learn about their own lives than to read about his own Those conversations explored his guests’ motivations, insecurities, and ambitions, eventually broadening the show’s scope to subjects ranging from neuroscience and psychology to performance and sports.

And with it, the business has expanded too.